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The Secret Board -> Is Political correctness dead ?
 
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  H.A.
 
December 2, 2003 7:46:51 pm
 
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quote:
DDF said...
Lots of people have been complaining about Clear Channel Communications and the way they seemingly dominate the radio market. I think that's what Dean is focusing on.

http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=504




Then why didn't he specify Clear Channel with Matthews?

 
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  Jan Ken Po
 
December 2, 2003 7:49:54 pm
 
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quote:
wawel said...

I'm not sure anyone's surprised, we're just pissed off about it.



At what point did you become pissed off??? Double standards have existed WELL before any of us on this board were born. It is part of human society. Ridding the world of it would like trying to rid the world of bias views, it ain't gonna happen.

 
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  michael corleone
 
December 2, 2003 7:59:17 pm
 
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quote:
DDF said...
Lots of people have been complaining about Clear Channel Communications and the way they seemingly dominate the radio market. I think that's what Dean is focusing on.

http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=504




I wasn't aware "lots of people" were running for president. Lots of people could be wrong. We know a majority were in the last election..

 
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  Ralph Wiggum
 
December 2, 2003 9:11:12 pm
 
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quote:
H.A. said...
Ah, but he singled specific people out (i.e., pickup drivin' confed flag wavin'), then implied that they SPECIFICALLY couldn't buy health care.

No one is denying that there are confederate flag folks around here, and no one is denying that there are people who can't afford health care. Dean equated the two, thereby insulting the people he was trying to appeal to.





I disagree, H.A. The original (correct) quote said:

...white guys blah blah 'ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too.'

He's including this group of Southerners into an already existing group (in his mind) that also can't provide health insurance for their kids and whose kids also need better schools. The distinction is made with the words 'either' and 'too.' He's not singling them out for being too poor or dumb to take care of their kids; he's including them as part of a group (that really does exist) that may be made up of farmers, accountants, atheists, etc., who are worried about their kids healthcare and education.


 
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  Michael in Lost Mt.
 
December 2, 2003 10:45:00 pm
 
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quote:
ZORRO said...
In a national radio interview last month, General Wesley Clark, used the word "Chinaman."
Every dictionary describes the term as offensive.

In October, Howard Dean, said he was eager to be "The candidate for guys with Confererate Flags in their pickup trucks."
At the time, his statements drew not condemnation, but ovations from democrats in attendance, including African Americans.

Can this mean the language police are in retreat?

It was just a year ago Senator Lott was ousted a the Majority leader after he suggested that the country would have been better off if Senator Thurmond, then a segregationist, had been elected president in 1948.

Are they really on the run or is there a double standard at work here?

Tolerating offensive comments from the Liberals, but not from the Conservatives.



..........The term "political correctness" is just a disguised way of saying "Conformity", of adjusting your life to whatever attitudes the majority of the people share & try to beat you over the head to accept & go along with, by whatever device they can use, whether it be guilt, having you publicly ridiculed, having you fired from your job or other positions you may hold.

Some parts of it are well-intentioned & other parts are more evil than hell.

MILM




 
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  wawel
 
December 3, 2003 12:25:51 am
 
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quote:
Jan Ken Po said...
quote:
wawel said...

I'm not sure anyone's surprised, we're just pissed off about it.



At what point did you become pissed off??? Double standards have existed WELL before any of us on this board were born. It is part of human society. Ridding the world of it would like trying to rid the world of bias views, it ain't gonna happen.



I would have to say probably the first time I realized it existed. Never said it ain't gonna happen but...

 
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  Michael in Lost Mt.
 
December 3, 2003 1:09:22 am
 
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quote:
H.A. said...
Two words: Robert Byrd



Two more words-Zell Miller.


 
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  tvwxman
 
December 3, 2003 6:29:46 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...
I disagree, H.A. The original (correct) quote said:

...white guys blah blah 'ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too.'

He's including this group of Southerners into an already existing group (in his mind) that also can't provide health insurance for their kids and whose kids also need better schools. The distinction is made with the words 'either' and 'too.' He's not singling them out for being too poor or dumb to take care of their kids; he's including them as part of a group (that really does exist) that may be made up of farmers, accountants, atheists, etc., who are worried about their kids healthcare and education.




But it's the condescending attitude of his remarks. He used a stereotype to drive home a point. And legit as that point may be, I've noticed that there's nothing worse than a Northerner appearing to talk down to the working class in the south.

Imagine the furor if GWB had said "I want to be the president for Mexican guys running tamale stands in South Central Los Angeles...."



 
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  Live77Dead
 
December 3, 2003 6:35:14 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...
quote:
Flex Buffchest said...

I'm sure all the Confederate decal having, pickup driving Southerners feel better knowing the true context of his statement, and can't wait to vote Democrat in the next election



You're right...rather than judge him on what he actually said, they'll take the Rush Limbaugh special, clipped and shortened with a little extra spin on top.





Or the Bill O'Really? "Stealing hubcaps at the prom" bit. That one's a real winner!!!

 
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  da_bugman
 
December 3, 2003 7:28:31 am
 
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quote:
Flex Buffchest said...
quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...
quote:
Flex Buffchest said...

I'm sure all the Confederate decal having, pickup driving Southerners feel better knowing the true context of his statement, and can't wait to vote Democrat in the next election



You're right...rather than judge him on what he actually said, they'll take the Rush Limbaugh special, clipped and shortened with a little extra spin on top.




They might also read between the lines and be offended that Dean thinks so little of them. Perhaps they will interpret his statements as: "Vote for me because I know you're not capable of taking care of your family, and I will work to get you free health care that someone else will have to pay for."




Thaat is exactly how I took it, a definite slap in the face to all rednecks.

There is definitely a double standard, and no, I am not surprised, just amazed that is is allowed to continue as blatantly as it has.

In the end, it won't matter, GWB will be president for another 4 years, and then we will have to put up with the Hildebeast for 8 years, because the same morons that voted her hubby in twice will vote her in too, being too stupid to see the damage he did to our country.



Carry on!!!

 
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  IPTAY FAMILY
 
December 3, 2003 8:20:25 am
 
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quote:
DDF said...

I'm not sure what's so bad about what Dean said. There are guys who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flags on the back. He didn't say all Southerners were like that. He's basically saying that he wants to be the candidate for the working people. He wants to listen to what they have to say, etc. He never says he only wants to be the candidate for the flag guys. In the article I posted about the talk radio guy in North Dakota the guy says that he wants to be the talk radio guy for people who take showers after work. I thought that was great.

To say that the U.S. would have been better off if a segregationist had been elected is definitely offensive and wrong to me. That has more of an impact. We're not talking about using an archaic term here. We're talking about the livelihood of millions of people. I think definitely needed to at least apologize for that.



Ah, but here's the rub.....according to the left, the Confederate Flag represents segregation and racism. So Dean if wants to represent those who flaunt their racism and segregationism what is the difference between that Trent Lotts statement. Fact is, both statements said the same thing, but it cost one man his job and one who would like to be President was largely ignored. Nice try DDF, but there is no way to spin that it isn't the exact same situation/statement.



Personally I could give a rats *** about Dean's statement outside of the obvious double standard. I think it HUGE political miscalculation. And it is just another example for Zell Miller's theory that the Democratic Party doesn't understand ANYTHING about the south and why they won't win in the south for a long time.

 
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  Ralph Wiggum
 
December 3, 2003 8:49:54 am
 
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quote:
IPTAY FAMILY said...

Ah, but here's the rub.....according to the left, the Confederate Flag represents segregation and racism. So Dean if wants to represent those who flaunt their racism and segregationism what is the difference between that Trent Lotts statement. Fact is, both statements said the same thing, but it cost one man his job and one who would like to be President was largely ignored. Nice try DDF, but there is no way to spin that it isn't the exact same situation/statement.



This is a pretty whacky argument, that Dean's comments which were intended to be inclusive to those who fly the Confederate flag are similar or the same as when Lott said that the country would be better off if a segregationist would have become president. I think Dean made the correct assumption that not every Southerner who has pride in the Confederate flag is a racist and he wants to be their president. I can't speak for him but I have a hunch that he wouldn't want to be a racist man's president and would say as much.

quote:

Personally I could give a rats *** about Dean's statement outside of the obvious double standard. I think it HUGE political miscalculation. And it is just another example for Zell Miller's theory that the Democratic Party doesn't understand ANYTHING about the south and why they won't win in the south for a long time.



Does any presidential candidate really ever have an intimate knowledge of the people in all regions? How would Edwards look to Northeasterners or Californians? How does Bush play to Northwestern types? It would be an ideal to have a presidential Everyman but I think you'll find many examples of not-very-well-rounded presidents in the past

 
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  tvwxman
 
December 3, 2003 9:13:31 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...


Does any presidential candidate really ever have an intimate knowledge of the people in all regions? How would Edwards look to Northeasterners or Californians? How does Bush play to Northwestern types? It would be an ideal to have a presidential Everyman but I think you'll find many examples of not-very-well-rounded presidents in the past



That's what consultants are for. Ever since LBJ, TV has elected our president.
Dean either hired stupid people to create his image, or he was too stupid/arrogant to listen to them.

Bush and Clinton have done a wonderful job being the "everyman." Most people could relate or actually like those two. Kerry, Dean, Lieberman....they don't have the personality to pull it off.

You know that the substance of what Dean said doesn't matter. It's the fact he used the word "Confederate Flag" in a sentence. The PC police made the rules a long time ago, and you can't complain if one of your own broke them.


 
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  H.A.
 
December 3, 2003 9:32:19 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...
I disagree, H.A. The original (correct) quote said:

...white guys blah blah 'ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too.'



Oh, is that what the correct quote is today?

quote:
He's including this group of Southerners into an already existing group (in his mind) that also can't provide health insurance for their kids and whose kids also need better schools. The distinction is made with the words 'either' and 'too.' He's not singling them out for being too poor or dumb to take care of their kids; he's including them as part of a group (that really does exist) that may be made up of farmers, accountants, atheists, etc., who are worried about their kids healthcare and education.


Maybe so. Still comes off wrong, as tvwaxman said. IF that's what he meant, that's fine -- and I do think that's what he meant. But he's no good at speaking extemporaneously (although I bet he'll get a pass on it, while GWB is accused of stupidity for being the same way). His handlers need to work on that.

If he's trying to make a point, drop the stupid stereotypes. If he wants the people who can't afford health care for their kids and who think their children deserve better schools to vote for him instead of with the Republicans, just say that. It's not really a shocking revelation that he wants as many votes as he can get.

Props to him for the civil union thing in Vermont though. If our biggest threat was disenfranchised homosexuals, I'd be on the Dean Bandwagon too.

 
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  clambake
 
December 3, 2003 9:35:20 am
 
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quote:
DDF said...
In the article I posted about the talk radio guy in North Dakota the guy says that he wants to be the talk radio guy for people who take showers after work. I thought that was great.



That reminds me of the time when while standing at the sinks in our restroom after just having relieved ourselves I asked one of our new office employees who had just been promoted from the field how he liked the new job. He said it was great. With the old job he used to have to wash his hands before he pissed.

The people complaining about a double standard need to shut the **** up. If it bothers them so much they need to be demanding that the folks making the off color comments be removed, not that they are receiving special treatment by not being removed. It's not like the Republicans are the ones that came out and said, 'That stupid Trent Lott, we need to run his *** off for those comments.' No. They bowed to pressure from the other side who demanded his removal. Now when their opponents do stupid things, wouldn't it make sense to demand they are removed and keep it up until they are instead of just crying that they are the only ones cleaning house when they only did it under peer pressure?

 
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  H.A.
 
December 3, 2003 9:37:02 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...
This is a pretty whacky argument, that Dean's comments which were intended to be inclusive to those who fly the Confederate flag are similar or the same as when Lott said that the country would be better off if a segregationist would have become president.



So, you can accept that Dean isn't trying to become the favored son of racists, but you can't imagine that Lott thought Thurmond would have been a good president for reasons other than being a segregationist?

Both men said stupid things, given the climate of the times, and both have to deal with the consequences. I'm not sure I want someone as stupid as Dean to be President. (BTW, Boortz pointed out today that Dean consistently referred to the Soviet Union's current involvement with Iran. I wonder if Bush knows the Soviet Union is no more involved with Iran than is the Ottoman Empire.)

 
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  IPTAY FAMILY
 
December 3, 2003 9:41:16 am
 
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quote:
Ralph Wiggum said...

This is a pretty whacky argument, that Dean's comments which were intended to be inclusive to those who fly the Confederate flag are similar or the same as when Lott said that the country would be better off if a segregationist would have become president. I think Dean made the correct assumption that not every Southerner who has pride in the Confederate flag is a racist and he wants to be their president. I can't speak for him but I have a hunch that he wouldn't want to be a racist man's president and would say as much.

Does any presidential candidate really ever have an intimate knowledge of the people in all regions? How would Edwards look to Northeasterners or Californians? How does Bush play to Northwestern types? It would be an ideal to have a presidential Everyman but I think you'll find many examples of not-very-well-rounded presidents in the past




You are missing the point. The entire time that the confederate flag has been in debate in the south, the left has said it is a symbol for racism and divisivness. It is a tailor made liberal political arguement. Boil it down to the simplest point. Flag=racism=evil. Dixiecrat=segregation=evil. That was the mantra of the Democrats, the NAACP, the ACLU. Now, suddenly a reference to the flag and those who believe/fly it is a reference to inclusion? Come on. If the flag was so bad, why would you want to represent them. Its pandering pure and simple. Fact is, the flag, AND the Dixiecrats had MUCH more involved in them than just racism and segregation. But, sorry, the left backed themselves into a corner with their arguements on both. Can't have your (collective you) cake and eat it too.


As for the second, its not one person, its an entire party. I can't think of a time since the civil war when a major national party was so out of touch with one geographic area. Sure you are going to have individuals who don't "fit in" but you can't look at the losses that the democrats have had in the south and say it is a personality thing. What do the democrats have now as Governors, 2 maybe 3.

 
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  tnabna
 
December 3, 2003 1:32:31 pm
 
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quote:
tvwxman said...
There are some in this nation that are held to a higher standard.

Rush Limbaugh makes a comment about Donovan McNabb's popularity, he gets fired. Bryan Cox makes a statement about a white player, and he doesn't.

Trent Lott says something stupid during a roast for his friend, he gets roated himself. Howard Dean, Robert Byrd or Ted Kennedy says something stupid on a daily basis, and it's "taken out of context."

A memo gets leaked about the democrats filibuster of Miguel Estrada in part because the special interests think he's a threat because "he's a Latino," and it's never heard of outside the pages of the WSJ. Draw a shaky inference about Haliburton, and it's all over the place.

Here's more info on the memo:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004370

I think there are a lot of people who are just sick and tired of the blatant double standard that exists in our society today. Laugh it off if you want to, but anyone who has been on a college campus recently knows what kind of society we're setting up in the name of not offending anyone and creating some form "diversity" based not on ideas, but on skin color.

Another interesting column re: diversity:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20031201.shtml





I've stopped getting fired up about stuff like this, 'cause like JKP says, what can any of us do about it? Double standards are always going to be around, and we all have to put up with them. I just shake my head sometimes at a lot of this stuff, especially in reference to politics, where some will excuse bad behaviour in one person and comdemn the same behaviour in another, strictly based on party affiliation (and it happens on both sides). It's so frustrating sometimes!

 
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  wawel
 
December 3, 2003 1:36:13 pm
 
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I thought Dean meant he wanted to be everyones' president. I actually thought it was a good thing to say. Oh well...
 
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  michael corleone
 
December 3, 2003 1:44:41 pm
 
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quote:
tnabna said...
I've stopped getting fired up about stuff like this, 'cause like JKP says, what can any of us do about it? Double standards are always going to be around, and we all have to put up with them. I just shake my head sometimes at a lot of this stuff, especially in reference to politics, where some will excuse bad behaviour in one person and comdemn the same behaviour in another, strictly based on party affiliation (and it happens on both sides). It's so frustrating sometimes!



Is it possible that there are different levels or maybe types of double-standards?

For instance, If my 17 year old son says: "Dad, I'm going to a Frat party tonight" I might give him a gentle warning and a curfew. If my 17-year old daughter says the same thing, I might say "When do we leave". Certainly a double -standard. But contrast that with someone losing their job for saying something essentially the equivalent to someone who didn't lose their job. I have a hard time putting these double-standards on the same playing field. So while double standards are all around us, I think we can make distinctions.

 
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